Numbers With Wings: An interview with The Bongos’ Richard Barone

By Steve Elliott

PCP: Hello Richard! You’ve written some great songs, what inspires you when you’re composing a song?
Richard Barone:Thank you for your kind words! Well, what inspires me is always different. Sometimes, in fact most often, it’s a person. Other times it’s a concept that I don’t particularly understand myself -- and the song is sometimes a device for working out a problem, or trying to get my head around an issue or an emotion that baffles me. Ultimately, though, inspiration is a sacred mystery. I don’t question it -- I just surrender to it. I’m usually as surprised by the outcome as anyone else.

Richard Barone, 2007, Photo by Mick Rock. Copyright (c) 2007 Mick Rock.

Take us back to the beginning when you first formed The Bongos with Rob Norris and Frank Giannini. How did you guys first come together ? What was the music scene like then for you all ?
The Bongos met at a time when anything was possible. There was a wonderfully eclectic music scene in New York (the new documentary, The Nomi Song (Palm Pictures DVD) portrays that period nicely). It was the beginning of the DIY movement, and we had a great time creating our own sound and image. We made Hoboken, New Jersey our home -- directly across the Hudson River from Manhattan, but a world away. It set us apart from the other bands in the area, and gave us, early on, a nurturing environment to develop our sound. In general, a very generous and mutually supportive music scene is what we emerged from.

You guys then released your first album, Drums along the Hudson (1982) on the Indie label, PVC, containing the classics, “In the Congo”, “The Bulrushes,” and your fab T-Rex cover, “Mambo Sun”! What do you think of this album now?
I will always have a special place in my heart for Drums Along The Hudson. The tracks on Drums were originally recorded for the Fetish label in England, as singles and EPs. PVC licensed it for the US, and turned it into a full-length album. “Mambo Sun” was almost an afterthought. We were rehearsing “In The Congo” the night before the session, and suddenly started jamming on “Mambo Sun.” We came up with kind of an extended arrangement, and it became our first tune to chart on the Billboard Dance chart. Most of Drums was recorded in Surrey, just outside of London, in a beautiful residential studio on a sheep farm. I was forever spoiled by that lovely experience!

Moving on to your superb & classic second release, the mini-LP Numbers With Wings (1983) on RCA Records, James Mastro (guitar & vocals) joins the group, thus completing the essential line-up of the Bongos. Was Numbers With Wings ever intended by the band to be a full length album vs. just being a 5-song record? If so, why wasn’t it so? I just wished it had been an LP! Any outtakes from those sessions? Everything just seemed to flow from one track into the other on this record. I never get tired of it and it still sounds fresh.
Again, thank you for your kind words! We were very pleased with the Numbers Mini-LP, too. On vinyl, the 12-inch, mini-LP format allowed the actual grooves to be quite wide, which in turn allowed us to create a massive sound, with a good amount of bass. This would have been impossible on a normal length LP where the grooves must be compressed to accommodate 20+ minutes per side. It didn’t bother us at all to have our first major label release an EP -- we actually liked the single and EP formats, and felt that those formats suited our songs and style. The original intention for the Bongos was to ONLY make 7-inch singles. The Drums LP, as I mentioned previously, was really just a compilation of our British singles, and not recorded as an album. The songs on the mini-LP were written during and after our trip to the UK to record Drums and tour Europe. So, part of the continuity of that mini-collection stems from the fact that we were still riding the creative wave from Drums.

You all sounded like a band on a mission on this record? There’s so much passion & energy dripping off of each song! All the songs are great. Let’s talk about each of the record’s classic songs. What are your thoughts about each of them? ‘Numbers With Wings,’ ‘Tiger Nights,’ ‘Barbarella,’ ‘Skydiving,’ and ‘Sweet Blue Cage.’
Yes, there was a tremendous amount of passion surrounding those sessions. One of the goals was to create a sound that was larger than life. Whereas Drums had captured a kind of garage rock sound, we wanted to widen the stereo image and add a lot of atmosphere for the Numbers mini-album.
 
The title song was mostly written in London. I was walking near Victoria Station with a pocket sized Casio VL-1 keyboard that would allow me to program and save a short sequence. I keyed-in the bass line that became the song, brought it back to my hotel room and strummed the E minor/A minor progression over it on my guitar, and the lyrics came very naturally. The second verse, my favorite, was written in the studio at the actual recording session. As with all the songs, it came fully to life when I brought it to the rest of the band. Rob played the bass line, adding his own, almost “surf ” feel, Frank added his massive backbeat, and James colored the chords by accenting each with harmonics and tremolo. Richard Gottehrer was the perfect producer for us at that time, adding touches of brilliance throughout (like the little skyrocket tambourine hit on the choruses).
 
“Tiger Nights” was written during a telephone conversation with James. It’s one of the most romantic songs we ever recorded, and our first collaboration. I remember Richard Gottehrer conducting me when I played the 12-string guitar solo, as if he were conducting a symphony orchestra.
 
"Barbarella" was not only inspired by the sexy queen of outer space played by Jane Fonda in the film. It was also a nod to our RCA labelmates Annabella, and drummer (Dave) Barbarosa, of the group Bow Wow Wow. It was a combination of their names, too. Again, Gottehrer was the perfect producer, since, as a member of The Strangeloves, he had employed the same Bo Diddley beat on their big hit, "I Want Candy"
(which was later covered by Annabella and Bow Wow Wow, bringing the whole thing full circle!).
 
"Skydiving" was a track that took shape mostly in the studio. Even though we may have had performed it live, the studio version took on a far more atmospheric, ambient, and sensual mood. It was like lovemaking.
 
Musically, I thought of "Sweet Blue Cage" as a bookend to "Numbers With Wings." It is based on the same two verse chords, but in reverse. Lyrically, it is about my own birth, and the feeling of sometimes wanting to go back into the womb. Well, YOU asked! I really like the sound of the vintage drum machine we used on the track, and the spare percussion overdubs. The dual e-bow solo was played by James and me, and the whole watery sound of the mix is exactly what I heard in my head for this song.

What led you and James Mastro to release a duo album, Nuts & Bolts (Passport) around this time in 1983 vs. just releasing another new Bongos album?
Well, there were a few reasons. James and I had written a song or two together while we were on a US Bongos tour (as special guests for the B-52's), and we wanted to record them ASAP. At first, James had not been fully integrated into the band as a full member. (He actually joined group officially when we signed with RCA.) Also, when we knew we were signing with a major label, I wanted to take advantage of the time before actually signing to release one more indie album, in the DIY vein of Drums, while we could. I had already relegated five new songs to the Numbers mini, and had five other new tunes (on “Richard’s Side” of Nuts & Bolts) that I wanted to record. Also, I wanted to work with Mitch Easter again, at his Drive-In Studio in North Carolina, where I had recently produced a solo EP for Steve Almaas (Beat Rodeo). So, I invited James to add some of his new songs, and make it a duo album. It was meant to fill the gap between Drums and Numbers . . . although, looking back, I’m not exactly sure when it actually came out. It was a very special and fun experience, and Mitch’s studio was as “garage” as it gets... it was his parents’ actual garage. But, with great gear and great mics, and Mitch was a spectacular drummer on that album. Listen to his serious, seamless tom-tom rolls on “Five Years Old.” Mitch was also a genius engineer; our experimentation with analogue tape on that album could fill a book.

Is it fair to say that the Beat Hotel (1985) album on RCA, your 3rd Bongos release, was more of a pop oriented album than your previous records? What did you all want to achieve with this album and what do you think of it now? At some point, you guys broke up after Beat Hotel. What happened?
Beat Hotel was full of great intentions, but I have never been particularly thrilled with the mix on that album. The plan was to explore some very exciting Brazilian percussion, and ‘power samba’ styles mixed in with hyped up, power pop guitars. The demos were filled with potential, but the result was not what I had in mind. It was fun, though, experimenting with an early Roland guitar synthesizer (which I borrowed from Kool & the Gang, recording next door). My favorite track was the last one, "Blow Up."
 
At some point, you guys broke up after Beat Hotel. What happened?
Interestingly, we never actually ‘broke up.’ Like that final song on Beat Hotel, I think we ‘blew up.’ There will be a whole chapter dedicated to that period in my book. After the “Beat Hotel” tour, Chris Blackwell (of Island Records) took us down to his studio in Compass Point, and we recorded a final album that remains unreleased to this day.

Any chance you would do a Bongos reunion with James, Rob, and Frank for a new album or a special one-off concert ?
Of course. We are close friends, and anything is possible.

Let’s switch gears and talk about your solo career and your thoughts on each album, starting with your first, Cool Blue Halo (1987) which was a live album. Why a live album vs. releasing a traditional studio LP for your first album? The music on this record’s been labeled classical rock, baroque pop, and chamber pop. What would you call it ?
“Chamber pop” is a nice phrase. I believe it was actually coined by The New York Times in a review of Cool Blue Halo. I didn’t want to duplicate what I had already done, and was still doing, with The Bongos, but, instead, to create an entirely new kind of ensemble. I had written songs that lent themselves to spare arrangements – and did not need to be driven by a backbeat and bass. The cello was an obvious choice, as it is the stringed instrument closest to the human voice, and could augment the vocal harmonies, play bass lines, and even play solos when necessary. The mallet, symphonic, and African percussion became the rhythmic backbone, and the acoustic and electric guitars kept the whole thing in the familiar realm of guitar pop. When I recorded Cool Blue Halo, we were playing Bongos dates around the country, as well as my own shows with the Cool Blue Halo ensemble in New York. I was hungry to make a new recording of these shows and, since it was essentially a live project, the live recording was the way to go. It was also the quickest way to get this album out. One night of recording, two days of mixing, and it was done. All in all, it was a very satisfying project for me.

Which leads us to your 2nd solo album, Primal Dream (1990), a studio effort. My faves on it were “River To River” which, sounded like a lost Bongos hit and “Mr. Used-To-Be” with Fred Schneider of The B-52’s on guest vocal.
Thanks! After the Cool Blue Halo album and tour of the US and Europe, I got a call from a new subsidiary of MCA Records (Paradox), and they asked if I was interested in making an album for them. By that time, with the success of Cool Blue Halo, I was officially on my own, and, well, I wanted to ROCK! I recruited a new band (actually, I added to the “Cool Blue…” lineup) and we recorded Primal Dream virtually live in the studio. Lots of layering of sounds, and big drums… it was, in a way a continuation of The Bongos sound, and a farewell to the 80s.

You had a four year break between albums and released Clouds Over Eden in 1994 and then came, Between Heaven & Cello in 1997. What did you want to accomplish on each of these two albums and what do you think of them now?
Well, I don’t recall taking any kind of break. I started writing and recording Clouds Over Eden after the Primal Dream tour (which took me again around the US and Europe) ended. I made meticulous home and studio demos of all of the Clouds songs – many in styles different than how they eventually appeared on the album, and some almost identical to the final versions. I was, in a sense, trying to tone down the bombast of Primal Dream into a bit more of the Cool Blue Halo chamber feel, suitable for the singer/songwriter-type vibe of the songs – my most narrative yet. But, I did want to use bass, and the full drum kit. I had just read The Beatles Recording Sessions by Mark Lewisohn, and wanted to try – perhaps for the last time – every analogue trick in the book. My producer on that album was the very wonderful Hugh Jones, who was game to work as a team with me to create all of our own effects – using no digital effects or devices whatsoever. We created our own echo chambers, tape delays, phasing, and everything else using all analogue gear. I was very aware the technology was changing fast, and I wanted to go there, too. But I really wanted to make one last “old school” record, and Clouds Over Eden was it. Lyrically, it is an album about loss and change. About people and places that I had loved in my life, and had suddenly gone. And the losses of others. In a way, my first three solo albums can be seen as a trilogy. Cool Blue Halo seems to represent childhood innocence and coming of age. Primal Dream reflects adolescence, obsessions, and sexual attractions; and Clouds Over Eden is a harder, more realistic view of things as they are, or had become. On Clouds, all the endings are not happy ones. But, still, it is a hopeful album, and, of my first three albums, I am most proud of it. And I am still in awe of Hugh Jones’ miraculous engineering skills. Between Heaven and Cello is a live field recording, recorded directly to DAT during the extended tour after Clouds Over Eden. The title came from the headline of an article on me in Interview Magazine.

Now, to be fair to you, there’s a recent album of yours that I haven’t heard yet, Collection: An Embarrassment of Richard which is available at your web site, RichardBarone.com. What’s this album all about ?
Collection: An Embarrassment of Richard is a limited edition import which compiles my personal favorite tracks from all my previous albums, with a few outtakes and demos. It is available at CDBABY.com and the Apple iTunes Music Store.

Have you made many videos with The Bongos and a solo artist ? Any possibility of releasing a DVD containing all of them?
The Bongos made several videos. The video for “Numbers With Wings” was nominated for Best Direction in the first-ever MTV Video Music Awards in 1984. We also made videos for “The Bulrushes,” “In The Congo,” “Mambo Sun,” and “Brave New World.” Additionally, there are live videos, and an unreleased live Bongos album. As a solo artist, “River To River” was a hit video for me on MTV. I’m interested in issuing these videos on the DualDisc format to be included with future re-issues of the original CDs, or in Bongos or Barone box set compilations.

Do you pretty much play live shows just in NYC these days or do you like to venture out around the U.S. and elsewhere ?
My schedule lately keeps me mostly in New York. I am often in the recording studio producing new artists, writing, or collaborating on songs. Recently I have been writing with my old friend Fred Schneider of the B-52s, and produced new albums for Johnny Rodgers, Tracy Stark, and Lach. I’ve been producing tracks for Quincy Jones’ daughter Jolie, and for British sensation Sophie Ellis-Bextor.  I have also produced major concert events at Carnegie Hall and the Hollywood Bowl. But, when my next album is released and my book is published, I will most certainly be on the road again!

What’s next for you, Richard? I heard that you’re working with legendary Producer, Tony Visconti?! That sounds very exciting!
Well, thank you again. It is very exciting for me to work with Tony. I’ve always been a big fan of his work. Even as a pre-teen, I was aware that he produced nearly all my favorite albums by T. Rex and David Bowie, recordings that inspired and influenced all my own recordings. Tony and I have written many of the songs together, and we also covered a Marc Bolan song from Electric Warrior. In a way, this brings me full circle, as “Mambo Sun” was also from that album. This time, having Tony produce the track, makes it even more of an homage to one of my musical heroes. The new recordings combine sounds and styles I have hinted at all along, but in a new way, and I feel now they have finally reached fruition. There is a new spontaneity, too, as we are writing and recording in one seamless process. Tony plays bass, and some guitar and other instruments on the album, as well, and we are joined by guest musicians throughout. Basically, this is the album I’ve always wanted to make, and working with Tony is, quite literally, a dream come true. I am also writing my first book, drawn from my memoirs, to be published by Backbeat Books in 2006.

Thanks for all the great songs you’ve written & recorded! This has been a real thrill for me. Much good luck & fortune with your career and next new album!
You’re welcome! Thanks so much for your questions, and your good wishes!

Updated 2007 questions:
Richard, I see that The Bongos reunited for a couple of shows in October 2006 and also in 2007 ! How cool is that?! What a nice surprise. How'd it go for you all?
Yes, we had a blast in October. It was the first time we had performed the Drums Along The Hudson album as a concert piece, from beginning to end. The songs were so carefully sequenced when we made that album originally, that the flow was very natural in a live setting, too. It plays as a kind of little journey. The shows were completely sold-out, so the Public Theater asked us to return and do it again, February 17, 2007. When Rob, Frank, and I get together to play, it is always very natural and spontaneous, just as it was the first time we ever did it. At the February shows we will be joined onstage by a very special guest, my good friend Rolan Bolan, son of Marc, who will sing with us on "Mambo Sun." The Bongos were the first American group to have a hit with a T. Rex cover in the 80s, so it's very special that Rolan will be joining us onstage for that tune. We are also filming the shows for a future special DVD release.

Are there more shows planned for 2007 and are there any new Bongos recordings in the cards ?
At the moment, no other shows are planned.

I understand that you guys are reissuing Drums Along The Hudson on CD in January 2007? What can your fans look forward to with this reissue? Any further Bongos unreleased material being considered for release ?
This is not a re-issue but a Special Edition, which will include the complete original album remastered, several songs from the first recorded Bongos show in 1980, two live tracks recorded at the Rainbow in London, where we are joined onstage by Throbbing Gristle in 1981, the original video for "The Bulrushes" from 1982, and an entirely new recording of "The Bulrushes" produced by Moby, who also played with us on the track. It was recorded in New York in 2006.

What's the latest on your new solo album that you've recorded with producer Tony Visconti at the helm ?
My new solo album is almost complete, and working with Tony on this has been a dream come true. We have also written nearly all of the songs together, and Tony played bass and guitar with me throughout. I also recorded a new tune with Mike Thorne (Wire, Communards, Bronski Beat), and two with Steve Rosenthal (Lou Reed, Rolling Stones). The CD cover will be shot by Mick Rock in Los Angeles, and we plan to release it sometime mid-year (2007). There is a teaser track available exclusively on iTunes now, "1,2, 3... Infinity," one of the first Tony produced for me.

What can you tell me about your book since we last talked ?
The book, "FRONTMAN: Surviving the Rock Star Myth," is now with the publisher, and is scheduled for publication this Spring (2007). It has evolved into a very unique hybrid: though autobiographical, using my own life as a backdrop, it is a "how-to" book for musicians, an insider's view and tribute to all frontmen and frontresses, and reads like a novel. The publisher is Backbeat Books/Hal Leonard, and should be available everywhere.

Check out the latest on Richard Barone at: www.richardbarone.com & The Bongos at: www.myspace.com/thebongos